The MCIULearns Podcast

Beyond Behavior: The CLM Journey to Classroom Transformation

• Montgomery County Intermediate Unit • Season 6 • Episode 14

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The Competent Learner Model (CLM) is revolutionizing autistic support classrooms by integrating behavioral analysis throughout the day instead of requiring separate intervention times. In this episode, teachers and behavior analysts from Pennsbury School District share their three-year implementation journey with MCIU Project Consultants Kari Kessler and Cassie Brusch, highlighting dramatic improvements in student communication skills and significant reductions in challenging behaviors.

To learn more about implementing the Competent Learner Model in your classroom or district, visit https://learn.mciu.org/CLM for resources and information about training opportunities.


Dana:

being able to communicate with us. I'm saying I don't like this or I don't want this or I want this, asking questions, manding for information.

Jenn:

It was extremely incredible Having that team of people and that approach has been beneficial for us to see success with our kids.

Brandon Langer:

Hello Montgomery County and welcome to the MCIU Learns podcast. My name is Brandon Langer and I am the Director of Innovation and Strategic Partnerships at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit in Norristown, pennsylvania. This is our conversation with ed leaders, thought leaders, people working in the space of education to better outcomes on behalf of children, with children and with adults as well. Today I am joined by two amazing colleagues from the Office of Organizational and Professional Learning, cassie and Keri. I'll let them introduce themselves and our special guests.

Cassie Brusch:

Hi everyone. I'm Cassie Bruch. I'm a project consultant here in the Office of Organizational and Professional Learning and I'm joined here with my colleague.

Kari Kessler:

Hey everybody, keri Kessler, also in the Office of Organizational and Professional Learning, here at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit. We're joined today by two of our colleagues who are working in the Competent Learner Model, and I'll have them go ahead and introduce themselves.

Dana:

Hi everyone. I'm Dana Joy Carducci. I'm an autistic support teacher in the Pensbury School District for grades three to five. Hi everybody.

Jenn:

My name is Jennifer Johnson. I am a board-certified behavior analyst at Pensbury School District and I support our autistic support program, kindergarten to fifth grade.

Cassie Brusch:

So, keri, for our listeners who might not be familiar with the Competent Learner Model, or CLM, how can you briefly describe it to somebody who's new?

Kari Kessler:

So the competent learner model is a supplemental curriculum that addresses applied behavioral analysis, verbal behavior, precision teaching and uses direct instruction lesson plans to support learners in autism but also in other low incidence classrooms.

Cassie Brusch:

Now, one of the things I really like about rolling out CLM is Carrie and I have online learning modules as well as doing in-person professional learning sessions, and then we actually go in classrooms and do some hands-on coaching. Dana and Jen, I'd love to hear a little bit about how you began integrating CLM into your spaces, Dana as the teacher and Jen as the coach.

Dana:

So we started about two and a half years ago, starting to implement the CLM model, first working with the support of Carrie and Jen as a coach in training. We started off by having it implemented with one student to slowly get integrated, along with having, I believe, three or four full-day trainings with Carrie to become familiar with the concept and then slowly integrate it. Throughout the years I've been lucky enough to have been working with multiple students to expand their verbal behavior, along with to help them just become better learners, to allow them to sit for longer periods of time so that they're able to access that curriculum. So this is my third year doing it and we've seen great growth. And as the years have gone by, the training has kind of slowly decreased, but we still have daily, weekly check-ins with Carrie and Jen to help support and make sure that we're implementing with fidelity.

Jenn:

Just to add from the BCBA perspective, since behavior and it's what we look at in an autistic support program behavior is that big form of communication, their access to their environment. So CLM has really given us the tools and the training in order to see where their deficits are and what they need to improve on so that they can access their special ed environment, their gen ed environment, their special areas and other areas that they may have not had success in before.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, Thank you, Jen, and that actually teased me up well, for what I was going to ask, which was we'd spoke with Vicky Tucci, who is Carrie, I believe, the creator of this model, the CLM model a few years back, and it really struck me how A how much attention and care went into developing this and how it evolved over time has been awesome, but I'm curious just to know a little bit deeper, from your perspective, from the actual implementation what do lessons, activities and other routines, how are they different compared to a non-CLM classroom?

Jenn:

So I think for me essentially and I'm not a teacher, so I really rely on my teachers to give the feedback but CLM is integrated into their classroom and their activities. It's not like we have to go in the corner room and give a student these picture cards and isolate them. It really is integrated into their daily schedule and it kind of can go with them. So if they're having a difficult time in reading, we can talk about that in their special education classroom, we can talk about that in their gen ed classroom or in their special area. I like that it can go into it. And also it does across people, places and items. So different people have to be involved to make the success of CLM work. Yeah.

Dana:

Just to piggyback off of what Jen said, what's really unique about CLM is the concept, again, that it's integrated within the classroom. So you're not your classroom model and the way that you run it is kind of built with CLM throughout it. So there's no I would say there's no designated time that you're doing CLM throughout in the day. It's like not in your schedule because you're just doing it throughout the whole thing. For example, we have a student that's working on manding or trying to ask for what they need and want, and so we're not dedicating like 15 minutes throughout the day of them manding, but rather we're taking that data throughout the day and reinforcing that so that they're able to mand throughout the entire day across, you know, with myself, with Jen, the paraprofessionals, in different classrooms, in different settings, with different items, and so that allows for that generalization of those skills that I think CLM really provides. It's a unique thing for CLM.

Kari Kessler:

So, kind of piggybacking on that a little bit, dana and Jen, tell us when you really saw a change in a student. I know we've shared some of this, but when you were like, oh my gosh, this just happened.

Dana:

I guess I'll go. I think Jen and I are probably thinking about the same two students happened. I guess I'll go. I think Jen and I are probably thinking about the same two students. We're really lucky in our classroom that I've been able to watch the same students grow for the past three years. So we started implementing CLM with these two students I want to say in February of 2023, maybe a little bit sooner than that and we started noticing that with their behaviors, they were really struggling to express what they needed, and so we were seeing a lot of behaviors.

Dana:

So we started to focus on teaching them how to mand with their devices, in conjunction with saying, when they're having a meltdown or a tantrum I don't like that, I don't want this, I need a break. And it wasn't. It took a very long time at the end of their third grade year, but beginning in fourth grade, they were both manding so much, being able to communicate with us. I'm saying I don't like this, or I don't want this, or I want this, I need this. Can I have this? Asking questions, manding for information. It was extremely incredible. We're so proud of the girls and the work that they've done. I mean they're continuing to grow with their manding, but we've seen a significant decrease in their behaviors because of that increased expressive communication, because we work so hard at them and validating and working with them on expressing their wants and needs. So we've seen an extremely impressive growth in their ability to express what they want and need, therefore decreasing the amount, the behaviors in the classroom.

Brandon Langer:

And can you just sorry for my ignorance. What is manding?

Dana:

Okay. So manding is when you are asking for something, so it comes from the word demand, so it's something I, something you want or you need. For example, you could man for information what time is this, or I want this, can I have this, am I doing this today or I need to go to the bathroom? All of those statements are things that you want and need.

Kari Kessler:

So that's what Amanda's Jen talk to us a little bit about the coaching support, because CLM is designed with a coaching model, with an internal coach, a coach that's at that district level, and then, in this case, the MCIU act as those external coaches coming in to support the coach as well as any of the classrooms.

Jenn:

So I am lucky enough that Carrie answers all of my frantic messages and all of my emails and text messages.

Jenn:

When I'm like Carrie, I don't understand.

Jenn:

So the coaching model, at least for Pensbury, has been very successful, because I spend two days a week in each of my buildings, so it gives me time to be a BCBA and to also be a coach for CLM.

Jenn:

So what I do is I take the training that Carrie gives our team and everyone else and then I take that back to the rest of our team, so our teachers, our paraprofessionals, and what we do from there is I do weekly check-ins, we review the data, we review the lessons. We really do a lot of troubleshooting and since I'm still new to this, it's a lot of hey, let's try this, and then we'll ask Carrie when she comes in to see if we're doing it right or wrong. But I really advocate to my team that I really just want them to try, just to see how we can, because some of the lessons you really have to just tease out what it's asking you to do and what it's asking their learner to do. So I like to just say like, let's try it out, and then we can then get feedback from either myself or Carrie, since she's been doing this a lot longer than the rest of us and Jen talk to us a little bit we mentioned it earlier about that training and preparation.

Kari Kessler:

It's a little bit different for coaches than teachers, but maybe just kind of giving the perspective of how we dress training for you and the classroom teams and maybe a little bit how that differs from some other ABA VB type programs.

Jenn:

So I think the nice part with CLM is we have the kind of old school modules that the coaches have to go through. So I have to go through all of those, but then in turn, because Carrie's also supporting Pensbury School District, I also get training from her. So I feel like as a coach in training I get the double dose. And it's nice because it really gives me the feedback of what this curriculum has to offer.

Jenn:

Where I know in previous it's kind of like you do a three-hour CEU and you're kind of sent off on your merry way and you hope that you're maybe doing something right or maybe not, and you don't really have that person. Unless you seek out someone else who has done this before on your own time to help you, you don't have that feedback of like all right, am I doing this, how is this going? You know it's. It's good for other people to really get that feedback from multiple people, whether it's Cassie or Carrie or myself, so that everyone is on the same page. It's nice that we have value time. We get certain days that Carrie comes in to give us training, which I think is super valuable to all of the teachers who are implementing CLM.

Dana:

What's really nice is that it's been like a three-year model. So we started three years ago and the training has continued. Obviously, the first year you're doing a lot of the online modules in addition to having Carrie come in and explain everything, along with visitations to the classroom, and what's so different about the CLM trainings is that you're in a group with, obviously, people that are also learning about CLM, but you have Carrie there, you have your coach in training, so you're bouncing ideas off of each other and asking those questions that you might not be able to if you didn't have that continuous training model. I like that. It was introduced slowly.

Dana:

The expectations were okay, let's start with one student. Okay, we're going to just look at the placement test and let's just try a few lessons and let's break down the formats, which are also the lessons, to try and see what they're asking you to do, and I like that. Every time we would meet, it'd be like okay, well, I tried X, y and Z and I'm struggling here. How can we work as a team? Because you're also working with other teachers, sometimes admin, to help you figure out the best way to implement the program within your classroom and then, as you become more comfortable with CLM and you're able to read those lessons and those formats with better understanding. You're still going to come up with questions. My texts carry a lot. I'll talk to Jen a lot. It allows you to become more comfortable with the program slowly throughout the three years, and so it really gives you a better familiarity with the program and at least gives me confidence that I'm implementing it with success.

Brandon Langer:

Carrie, that's awesome to hear from my seat because I know you've been doing this for a while, and to hear you know Fidelity kind of come through in terms of the implementation speaks a lot to the work you've been doing. They mentioned they've been in their third year. Is that typically about the timeline that you see in terms of people becoming more comfortable with this model in the classroom?

Kari Kessler:

Yeah, brandon, I think three years in, because it is a curriculum, even though it's supplemental. There, as they mentioned earlier, you're embedding it in what your program in your district already wants. So they're still teaching reading, writing, math. They may have inclusive opportunities, or see the scope and sequence when Dana's talking about her two students walking them through those sets of lessons to get that manding where it is. It's very much like implementation science that Vicki didn't realize she was doing and it's that three to five year process.

Cassie Brusch:

So we've talked a lot about the success and the integration of CLM, but we do know, with the rollout of anything, there are some challenges or stumbling blocks. So Dana, from your perspective, is in a classroom rollout and Jen, from yours, in multiple classrooms across multiple buildings. You know what is, you know one of the challenges that you've experienced and how did you work to overcome that?

Dana:

and how did you work to overcome that?

Dana:

I think anytime you implement something new or something that is presented to you that's new, you always kind of look at it with trepidation because you're adding something new to your classroom, and oftentimes when you're in an autistic support classroom or any sort of program that has students with a lot of needs, it can be extremely overwhelming because you're having to teach everyone individual math, reading and writing, and so for me, I needed to find ways to integrate CLM throughout the day without setting aside like a time block for CLM kind of what I talked about in the beginning, focusing on the fact that it's like an integration model you integrate it throughout the entire day, and so that was a mindset change for me, and so that was a little bit of a challenge, just not knowing about it.

Dana:

But now that we're with the support of Carrie and Jen, it's been very helpful. And also my paraprofessionals are incredible and they're very helpful in running the programs, because there are times where I'm not able to. They have five minutes and they're like, oh, let's do a lesson. So that was kind of a challenge for me that we've kind of worked as a team to figure out.

Jenn:

And I think there also comes some skepticism with a new program. Everyone's kind of like Dana said, you're kind of treading lightly of like, all right, can we do this? Are we going to do this? Is it going to work? I mean, you don't want to put all this time and effort into something that completely could fail. So I think really getting Carrie's experience and Cassie coming in to help has been a huge part of them saying all right, we've seen success in other school districts. We've seen success with other kids who look and act just like your kids. So it's not some new concept that we just made up yesterday that we're like, hey, try this out. So I think Really having that team of people and that approach has been beneficial for us to see success with our kids.

Brandon Langer:

Cassie and Carrie, I know you've been working with a number of people throughout the southeastern part of the state here. What's next for your work with CLM, or what are the next steps that if someone wanted to get rolling with this or learn more?

Kari Kessler:

So, yes, so we are seeing CLm um continue to grow and in certain places. So if they want to learn more, we have a learn page. Cassie, I'll let you um talk a little bit about that, but that gives us all that. That gives everybody all the information they need to know about CLM and to contact Cassie or myself for more information.

Cassie Brusch:

Yeah, so, as Keri said, we have a page at learnmciuorg slash CLM and on there I'll give you a nice overview of the model and the repertoires. Then it'll also lead you to. We also offer a one hour overview course If you're really interested in possibly taking this to your classroom or to your district to really get in a little bit more, understand like what the commitment looks like and deeper into the curriculum. So that's a great place to start and then, like Carrie said, just reaching out to us and we can open that conversation.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, and also on that page, cassie. I know that there it has the conversation we had with Vicky Tucci, who we mentioned earlier as the creator of this model, so that's a great another great avenue to kind of hear about how it was developed and evolved over time. So thank you, dana and Jen, for hopping on with us and sharing your story. Thank you, carrie and Cassie, for all the work you're doing with these students. I love hearing Dana's personal testimony about lowering the number of behaviors that you're having to address in the room. That's the ultimate goal, right? How do we do that? So really excited to hear that that's taking shape. And thank you, dana and Jen again for partnering with us and working through that and, carrie, all the work you're doing.

Kari Kessler:

Well, thank you to everybody and my right-hand woman, Cassie, who maybe came on to CLM kicking and screaming. I don't think she did, but yeah, it's been great to have the partnership with her, which has allowed us to build it up a little bit also in Montgomery County.

Brandon Langer:

So, again, as Cassie said, if you're interested in learning more about CLM, to build it up a little bit, also in Montgomery County. So, again, as Cassie said, if you're interested in learning more about CLM learnmciuorg, slash CLM Be sure to check all out, all the resources there. If you haven't had a chance to check out the Learning Network at learnmciuorg, please do. There's a bunch of other resources up there for teachers, for leaders, great stuff from our Office of Organizational and Professional Learning. This is the MCIU Learns podcast. We are releasing these about biweekly at this point, so thank you for tuning in. We have a whole backlog of conversations, including CLM, as I mentioned before. Please be sure to follow us on all our social networks at MCIU Learns.

Kari Kessler:

And we look forward to sharing more information, more stories on the next episode of the MCIU Learns Podcast.

Brandon Langer:

Thank you everyone for hopping on with us today. Thanks, brandon, thank you Thanks.