The MCIULearns Podcast

Transforming Math Education Through Innovative Intervention with Juliana Tapper

• Montgomery County Intermediate Unit • Season 6 • Episode 9

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Explore the secrets to transforming math education as we promise to shift your perspective from deficit-based thinking to asset-based empowerment. MCIU's Brandon Langer and Kirpa Chohan speak with Juliana Tapper, a dynamic math intervention teacher and author. Together, they discuss how fostering a belief in students' potential can dramatically enhance their motivation and performance in mathematics. Juliana shares her enlightening journey of teaching students previously considered behind and unveils strategies that challenge traditional labels, proving that every student can succeed when given the right support.

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Kirpa Chohan:

There is so much power in shifting that mindset from deficit-based to asset-based for their students right. And they're all human beings and they self-prophesize. They see these trackings, they see that, oh, I'm in the dumb class, I'm in the smart class.

Juliana Tapper:

So having them shift that mindset that, oh, they can do it, that's amazing we could stand to do away with labeling a class as an intervention class and instead, you know, equipping teachers with what they need to be able to reach all students.

Brandon Langer:

Hello Montgomery County and welcome to the MCIU Learns podcast. My name is Brandon and I'm the Director of Innovation and Strategic Partnerships at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit in Norristown, pennsylvania, and this is our podcast, with conversations of people passionate about education, moving education forward, whether that's thought leaders or teachers, other leaders in the space of education. So we're talking all things education on this podcast, but this time around we're continuing our conversations around mathematics and once again I'm being joined by one of our project consultants, kirpa Kirpa. Thanks for joining me again with another great conversation today. You want to go ahead and introduce?

Kirpa Chohan:

yourself, and then we'll introduce our special guest. Hi, I'm Kirpa Chohan, a project consultant at MCIU specializing in math education. Today, we have an exciting guest with us, juliana Tapper. Juliana's extensive experience in the classroom and as a coach in underserved communities like South Los Angeles, easton, jose and Denver shows her commitment to ensuring that all students succeed in math. She's also the author of the Amazon bestseller Teaching 6-12 Math Intervention and actively presents at national conferences like NCTM, ncsm, ascd and many more. Juliana, we're really excited for you to be here today.

Juliana Tapper:

Thank you so much for having me. I'm always excited to be a part of this.

Kirpa Chohan:

Okay, so I wanted to start off by saying that I really enjoyed your session at NCSM and I'm really excited that you could join us and talk and share your expertise with us. So one thing that I really took away from that was your story like how you got inspired to do this work, and I would like to start with you sharing that with us.

Juliana Tapper:

Yeah. So thank you so much for like the kind words about NCSM. It was a big deal for me to be accepted and to be there and to hear that it resonated with even just one person even if it's just you that it resonated with that really meant a lot to me. So thank you for like taking the time to find me afterwards and say that as well. So yeah, my story with math intervention. I've always been passionate about teaching students who struggle with math. I personally was also a student who struggled with math when I was in school, and so I love being a math intervention teacher. And at my first two schools, you know, my administration asked me to teach middle school content in my high school math support class. So you know, we were that's called a just-in-case approach to math intervention, where my administration was like, yep, I want you to fill in all of the gaps, just in case they missed it in middle school. You know, we know that they failed math in middle school, so we can have a pretty good sense that they really don't have those concepts mastered. But they wanted me to teach all remedial content in my math support class. Then, at my third high school that I worked at I thought I was going to be doing the same thing with my math support class, but then it was like two weeks into the school year started and my admin came, came into my classroom and they were like you know, I know we said we want you to teach the middle school content, but can you actually just teach integrated math one? We just like we just want you to teach integrated math one to your middle, to your ninth graders that are in math concepts class, in your math support class. And I wanted to keep my job. You know it was my first year at that school so of course I was like, yeah, sure, definitely. You know, as I had to digest that that night I was really left with a lot of questions like can my kids do this? Is this good for my kids? You know that was a mastery based or a standards based grading school, competency-based grading school. We knew they had no scores filled in for sixth, seventh, eighth grade math. We knew that they have major gaps there. Is this good? They're going to have gaps in their understanding. I don't know if I can do this. I don't know if they can do this.

Juliana Tapper:

I had all these negative thoughts about me and my kids and all of this. And I was like you know what? But we got to make it happen. So I'm going to come in tomorrow. And I walked into my class the next day and I just said you know what? I believe that you guys can do grade level math. So we're going to do grade level math in here and I'm going to support you to get you there so that you can be successful in the grade level math. But starting today, we're going to do integrated math one in here. We're not going to do middle school concepts anymore.

Juliana Tapper:

And they sat with that and, like one boy raised his hand and he was like, oh so am I going to get integrated math one credit for this class? And I was like, yeah, and we're actually like we're going to fill in all of the sixth, seventh, eighth grade. You know competencies like that you need filled in. And another kid was like raised his hand. He was like so I'm going to have the same textbooks as, like, my smart friends? And I was like, yeah, you're going to be like using the same materials as your smart friends.

Juliana Tapper:

To see that shift in them. Something changed in them that day and their motivation went higher than I could have ever imagined. And, to cut straight to the point, they performed as well, if not outperformed, some of my you know quote regular, integrated math one kids, because I had three periods of math support and two periods of regular, you know, integrated math one. All my math support kids did equally. If some did better, you know then like outscored some entire periods of my quote regular kids. So that just forever changed me that math intervention should be done this way, should be done where we we have to shift our expectations as the teachers that my kids can do this, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to help them get there. But I need to change my beliefs that my kids can do this and can do this at high levels.

Kirpa Chohan:

There's so much power in shifting that mindset from deficit-based to asset-based for their students, right and they're all human beings and they self-prophesize. They see these trackings, they see that, oh, I'm in the dumb class, I'm in the smart class and they behave because they're put in that classes. So having them shift that mindset that, oh, they can do it, that's amazing.

Juliana Tapper:

Absolutely. I mean, I will like just never forget that exact day, because they were. I could tell they were really thinking about this and all of that, what it means for them to actually be getting grade level credit for this class, and how much that meant to them.

Kirpa Chohan:

So I'm going to shift a little gear. How do we identify kids to be put in intervention versus not intervention?

Juliana Tapper:

Deciding where kids are placed, deciding where kids go. I've never been a part of those conversations, you know, like just to be transparent. I've never been able to be a part of the conversations about who gets to make up my class. I feel like my wheelhouse. My passion is just whatever is decided by administration, let's just make it the best case scenario and I'm going to help teachers to make it a best case scenario, whatever they're put on their plate.

Juliana Tapper:

If I could wave a magic wand and start being a part of those decisions, I don't know.

Juliana Tapper:

I mean, I truly believe now, especially since having that experience of teaching my students grade level math, I truly believe that you know, I'm not sure we really need to do the tracking I feel confident that if we could equip teachers with strategies, resources, mindset, work to be able to teach grade level content to all students, I mean I think that would eliminate the need for these differentiated, like intervention classes that are labeling kids that are and even though it's so commonplace to just be like, oh I teach the low kids, oh I teach the slow kids, but that is actually deficit labeling and that feeds not only into our own expectations of teachers about what our kids in that class can do. It feeds into the kids' expectations of teachers about what our kids in that class can do. It feeds into the kids' expectations of themselves, just like you were saying, becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. So you know, I think we could stand to like, do away with labeling a class as an intervention class and instead, you know, equipping teachers with what they need to be able to reach all students.

Brandon Langer:

This is a conversation that spans a lot of different subject areas, I mean really all subject areas, right as to what classroom settings are appropriate for students. How would you approach, or how do you approach, situations where there are wide gaps? I mean there are kids and families that look, they go home, they drill and kill. I mean they're really on it, they really get, they have both the skills and the conceptual understanding of what's going on, sitting next to a kid that is hearing it for the first time, on top of the fact that maybe they, they have been labeled behind or whatever. In the past, you know, you said he equipped the teachers with the necessary you know tools and supports to do so. What does that look like for you?

Juliana Tapper:

Yeah, really good question, and I feel like also it's worth really stating that my own personal classroom experience has always been with like you know 100% students who struggle. I have never taught a class where my ninth graders came to me knowing how to multiply. You know, I have never taught a class where my ninth graders knew how to do integer operations with positive and negative integers. I've always had to start from that space with my students. So I don't know I honestly don't know what it's like to teach students who go home and do drill and kill worksheets. I rarely have students actually complete homework, to be totally honest, and so my personal experience has never had that wide of a divide within one classroom. I've always kind of been able to really keep my most struggling students in mind, because that was pretty much where the majority of the students were, and I feel, like some teachers, they have such huge gaps within their classroom when you do have those really wide gaps. I've been looking into Modern Classrooms Project, that whole like flipped classroom approach, which I think could work really well for students who are motivated and who are wanting to do stuff on their own. You know, can you assign them some stuff online? Can you kind of create like more self-paced for those motivated learners, can you allow them to like kind of dig deeper and go further than maybe what you're able to do in class? And then can you, as the teacher, like you are the most valuable resource in your class, can you spend your time with those students who are struggling and who are, you know, maybe you know falling behind a little bit, have more gaps from previous grade levels, can you spend your time really investing in them so that they're not doing like the digital thing Because I see that happening a lot where in intervention classes a district will purchase an intervention curriculum which is usually just an online thing, and then the kids who are struggling are placed in front of the computers for the whole period, while the kids who get it like get the rich instruction with their teacher, and I think like, well, maybe we could flip that a little bit. The kids who are motivated, can they work ahead of grade level, even on Khan Academy something free, you know, or it could be in your textbook software or whatever and then instead put your most valuable resource, the teacher, with the kids who are struggling. So I think that could be kind of one way to think about it, even if it's just one day a week or one day every other week, where you kind of group the kids that way within the class to get students what they need Other sort of strategies to think about.

Juliana Tapper:

How do I teach grade level content to students who are multiple grade levels behind? I love giving the example of like multi-step equations. You know we're talking specifically about math today and multi-step equations are the grade level standard for like eighth grade and algebra one, I believe, and so. But I know my students didn't know how to do two-step equations, so that's like we got to do that and to do that we got to do one-step equations and I know that they're also going to need to know how to combine like terms, because that's going to be part of the multi-step equations, and I also know they're going to need to know how to do the distributive property.

Juliana Tapper:

These are all things my ninth graders have never come to me knowing how to do, and so what would what should you know? Quote unquote should take me a day to do multi-step equations for ninth graders. I know that's actually going to take me like a week because I have to fill those gaps just in time and that's where this like just-in-time intervention approach comes in, versus a just-in-case intervention is when I always teach remedial content comes in versus a just-in-case intervention is when I always teach remedial content, but the just-in-time approach is when I teach all those scaffolded skills to get to the grade level content. I'm teaching the prior, you know the prerequisites just in time for the grade level content. So it's connected to that grade level content and I think that's kind of a framework that teachers can take with them to use as a strategy, no matter what they're teaching.

Kirpa Chohan:

You shared in your presentation that. Ok. So how do you get to that? Just in time context you said, ok, you're teaching multi-step. How do I know that before that, if I've never taught middle school, I need to teach two step. I need to teach one step. I need to teach thisstep. I need to teach one-step. I need to teach this. How do teachers, how can teachers figure that out? Are there any resources?

Juliana Tapper:

for that In terms of resources? I actually think chat GPT and using some AI. If you have never taught multi-step equations and you're trying to think like oh my gosh, like what might my students struggle with, you can type that into chat GPT. My students generally struggle with math. I'm teaching multi-step equations. I'm an eighth grade teacher. What are some of the scaffolded skills that my students might need to get there and you know? Or some of the prerequisites skills that my students might need to achieve success with the grade level content? So that's, you could use chat GPT for that.

Juliana Tapper:

There's also a wonderful resource at achieve, the coreorg student achievement partners They've created. Not only do they have the coherence map, which is like a mind boggling wonderful yet overwhelming piece of information wonderful yet overwhelming piece of information but they also have for K-8, they have documents, and then for high school, they have documents that are like priority standards, essential standards, and so using those documents to help you identify what is essential that I need to teach, because with a just-in-time approach to intervention, you're not going to be able to cover all that you normally get through in. You know Algebra 1, for example, so you have to think okay, there's no way I can get through it all, because what was supposed to take me a day is going to take me a week now, and so not for every concept. But you know, sometimes that does happen. Going to take me a week now, and so not for every concept, but sometimes that does happen. So what can I cut out so that I can spend the time helping my students who are behind to get up to grade level. So using those documents from AchieveTheCoreorg are very helpful.

Juliana Tapper:

I've also worked with a team of teachers for 6th, 7th, 8th and Algebra 1 to create the documents that have not only the essential standards identified but also the kind of essential prerequisite skills matched up with those standards. So that makes it really tangible for like 6th through Algebra 1. And I can put the link. It's just a free. I have it available for free on my website. It's my Just-In-Time Math Intervention Guide. I can put the link. It's just a free. I have it available for free on my website. It's my Just-In-Time Math Intervention Guide. I can put the link there. We can put it in the show notes so that if you do teach six through Algebra 1, you can get that already done for you. That has the essential standards. It is in Common Core.

Juliana Tapper:

So you know every state is, like you know, starting to branch off and do something different, but you can get a general sense of what's essential for those grade levels and then what prerequisite skills might my students need support in. So that document would be great. Chat GPT would be great. Also, talking about it with your department. You might be a first year teacher but if you can go call on a colleague who has been teaching a few more years than you and you can say, okay, we're coming up on solving multi-step equations like what have you run into in the past that have been hang-ups for your kids, that can also be really helpful. And build that collaboration within your department because teaching can be so solitary, especially if you're teaching intervention, there's usually only one or two intervention teachers. You might not have anyone to talk to, but other teachers that are teaching whatever grade level might have some great insight for you about what students usually struggle with if you are a newer teacher.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, thanks for sharing that resource with us. We'll definitely get it put in the show notes. And I think you're hitting on another great point there, on the tail end of that, about the need to collaborate in this space and particularly when you feel maybe very well, are, you know, a lone soldier in your endeavor. But it is good to know, I mean, you're not alone out in the wild, especially as it pertains to this topic, as every district, every high school has some sort of intervention class, right, might be approaching it differently, and you're even mentioning how you know your district is an integrated math, which we just did a podcast, kierpa and I, with two of our administrators, about what integrated math looks like versus the traditional pathway, right? So even that can be a little bit challenging to find peers in and, as I learned in America, when the rest of the world's doing it this way. Anyway, all that is to say, the need to really tap into each other is really important. How do you do that yourself?

Juliana Tapper:

At my first school I had like a teaching partner, like my administration set it up so that there wasn't ever just one person teaching one class.

Juliana Tapper:

We always had someone to collaborate with. So I think some of that can be at the administrative level and a conscious decision at the administrative level to say like there's not just one algebra one teacher, one geometry teacher, one algebra two teacher. Instead we're going to have at least two teachers teaching algebra two, so there's always someone to thought partner with, there's always someone to bounce ideas around. So I think you know, if you're an administrator listening to this, like you can take that into account and make sure that there are no lone rangers out there.

Juliana Tapper:

I think at some of my other schools I didn't feel like I had the community in my department. Some of my other schools I didn't feel like I had the community in my department. To be totally honest, as cheesy as it is to do community building activities during PLC time, during department meetings, I truly believe they do need to happen, even for adults, because I walked away from one of my schools feeling like I can't even tell you the first name of anyone I taught with, you know, and like that's not a good thing.

Brandon Langer:

No, yeah, and that and that's again not a unique situation, especially especially in a high school. I mean right Like, schedules get really crazy. When you get in the secondary you start digging into all the different schedules. Schools take Size of school matters dramatically. Even if you do have a lot of peers, your, your schedules might just not line up because they don't line up that year. And I've had years where I felt really connected to my colleagues because of how the schedule worked, and then other years where that I was like what happened? I thought we could just run the same playbook, but now I'm not seeing anybody all day long. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Kirpa, I'm wondering where's your head in terms of like. If you were to ask her one question, what would that question be?

Kirpa Chohan:

I had to ask that one question, I think it would be how do you define success in math intervention and how do you measure student progress in that?

Juliana Tapper:

Oh man, that is a really great question. It's a big one. It is really a big one and it opens the can of worms. That is like grading and grading practices. So I presented at NCSM and then I presented at NCTM, and my session at NCTM was on mastery-based grading, because I truly do feel that, like mastery-based grading and standards-based grading, you know, grading with a rubric is actually so much more motivating for our students who struggle. You know, grading with a rubric is actually so much more motivating for our students who struggle, because I think I think in general in intervention there is such a heavy like burden, emphasis on data and like we have to like collect all this data.

Juliana Tapper:

Where are students at? Where are they now? Where are they now? Where are they now At the end of the week?

Juliana Tapper:

Can we give like a five question assessment that is just one simple thing that they learned from the week, like three kind of like complex generally like I know it as well, as my teacher taught it questions and then maybe one like challenge question and can we use that to really gauge their understanding?

Juliana Tapper:

You know, did they understand the simple concept? Did they understand the complex concept or are they able to take it you know and grow beyond what we did in the classroom. If we can just simplify it to something like that, I think that yields such much more rich data. Then on Monday we can do small groups for like 15-20 minutes where the kids who didn't even understand the simple concept from that week let's have a small group with all the students who didn't understand that simple concept, because we're only gonna grow on that simple concept the following week. So how can we ensure that we're catching that gap in the moment? I think that's the purpose of intervention. I think we need to be truly using intervention to catch the gaps in the moment and do something about it.

Kirpa Chohan:

Makes sense, right? If we're not going to teach them at the grade level, they're never. They're always going to fall behind. They're never going to get there. We can support them where they're at filling in things that they have missed in that thing, but you don't have to reteed with um.

Juliana Tapper:

We got to catch students you know, two years up in this one year, I need to see you catching up to grade levels within this year or we need to get through the whole textbook, because if I don't get through the whole algebra one textbook, they're not going to be ready for geometry and then the geometry teachers are going to be mad at me next year.

Juliana Tapper:

And there's all this like extra pressure that I feel math teachers have more than any other subject area and you know, and like that can make it really difficult to feel like, oh my gosh, I have to like respond to that data in real time. I'm working with a middle school this year and the sixth grade team has the entire school year planned Every lesson. This is what's going to happen on this day, you know, and that doesn't allow us any opportunity to catch gaps in real time and react to it when we have. I know there's pressure to get through the whole textbook in a year, but when we're completely planned out for the entire school year and it's October, you know there are some problems with that.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, I think that I mean I'll be honest with you. That's that. That that's a massive soapbox for me that I could get on for a while, because the challenge with that line of thinking is to is to have a newborn and tell and map out when they're going to walk. And you don't know, you don't know when they're going to walk. It could happen at eight months, it could happen at 15. And you know what? They're probably still going to be able to be productive member of society in either case.

Brandon Langer:

Setting that hard and fast date on every single indicator and every single skill and yeah, that's a real struggle for me to understand, because that's just not how learning takes shape for humans. It's not. I mean, there are norms, there are things you can project with pretty close precision, you know. And there are norms, there are things you can project with pretty close precision across the room. Okay, we'll probably be about here, but this idea that it's more important for me to get through every page of something than it is for you to learn, it is something that we need to leave behind.

Brandon Langer:

And I love everything you're saying about formative practice and using where the kids are to inform what we're doing tomorrow, especially with technology, which is more my background, you know. That affords us the opportunity to know that with, to your point, better precision, better data, informing what we're doing and why. But I want to thank you for joining Kirpa and I today to share your experiences, your background, but, more importantly, just your big ideas. I think they're transferable. I know we're talking math intervention today. This is transferable to any subject. This is transferable to any classroom where learning needs to take place, because that's really what we're talking about here, I mean yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Juliana Tapper:

I really appreciate it.

Brandon Langer:

Always a good conversation with you. What's up next for you, Just before we kind of close out what's up on the horizon for you professionally?

Juliana Tapper:

Yeah, right now the big thing my book is already an Amazon bestseller, but it is just in pre-order, so it's not shipping till December 30th of 2024. So, um, right now all my focus is just on getting as many pre-orders as I can. I have a bunch of great bonuses for teachers who pre-order um at gate breaker bookcom. Uh, so just working on getting word out about the book, uh, is really the next. The next big thing for me and um can always connect with me on Instagram I'm collaboratedwith Juliana to see what I'm up to next.

Brandon Langer:

Awesome. Thank you so much again for sharing. We'll make sure we put all those links in descriptions as well, as you know. Be sure to get us that resource that you mentioned before. We'll get that in the description as well. For anyone else that hasn't heard our podcast before, mca Learns Podcast publishes, usually bi-weekly, lots of different conversations, ranging from math all the way to other school programs and services, other things going on within the IU, so be sure to check out other past episodes. We'll definitely hopefully be reaching out to Juliana again in the future, see how her endeavors are taking shape and hear more great ideas. Kirpa, thanks for getting us set up today and thank you to the two of you for joining.

Juliana Tapper:

Thanks for having me. Thank you.