The MCIULearns Podcast

Conquering Math Myths with Ron Martiello and Jenna Rufo

• Montgomery County Intermediate Unit • Season 6 • Episode 7

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Unlock the potential of every student in your classroom with insights from Ron Martiello and Jenna Rufo, the dynamic duo behind "Conquering Math Myths with Universal Design." With their combined expertise in math coaching and special education, Ron and Jenna share strategies that redefine what it means to be a "math person," helping students develop a positive math mindset and breaking down the barriers that discourage them from fully engaging with mathematics.

Opportunities included in this episode

Follow Ron and Jenna on Social Media

Jenna Social Media: @jennamrufo, Jenna Mancini Rufo on Facebook
Ron Social Media: Ron Martiello on LinkedIn


Jenna Rufo:

If we have students who you know already in third or fourth grades have decided that they're not math people, then we have to talk about that idea of having a positive math mindset.

Ron Martiello:

Making sense of the problem is so vital. It's the first step into like, okay, what am I supposed to do and how am I supposed to engage with the mathematics?

Brandon Langer:

It's actually an opportunity for more inclusive practices rather than a gatekeeper. Thought leaders, people in the space of education moving learning forward. We have another great conversation today with two Montgomery County teachers educators, those that have worked in our school district so I'm excited for that. Before we get rolling, I want to introduce a couple of my colleagues here at the IU. I'm going to hand it off to Kirpa and Erin to introduce themselves.

Kirpa Chohan:

Thank you, brendan, for having us on the MCIU podcast. I'm Kirpa Chohan, an educational consultant at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, specializing in math.

Erin Barry:

And I am, erin Barry, also a consultant in Office of Professional Learning at the IU. We are super excited today to have Ron and Jenna here with us, authors of Conquering Math Myths with Universal Design, an inclusive instructional approach for grades K-8. I'm going to pass it over to Jenna and let them introduce themselves. Great Thank you, erin.

Jenna Rufo:

I am Jenna Rufo. I spent most of my career in education, specifically special education started off as an inclusion facilitator. I co-taught, I was a special ed administrator and assistant superintendent, before leaving public ed a few years ago to start my own business, empower Ed, and now we provide inclusive and special education consulting across the country to 17 different states. We do some work with the US Department of Justice and the California Department of Justice, and also some remote work in Australia, and why I'm here today is because I also co-authored this wonderful book with my friend and colleague, ron.

Ron Martiello:

Thanks, jenna. Ron Martiello here celebrating 28 years in education Can't believe I'm here. I've been a first grade teacher and assistant principal and then, in about 2015, I decided to kind of take a movement toward the classroom again, to spend a little more time with my own family and reinvent my teaching strategies, and eventually the school district of North Penn, which I work for, said hey, ron, we have another, we have another job for you that you might be interested in. So they asked me to be a math and technology coach and eventually I took to the math. Love being a math coach here at North Penn. This is my sixth year as a coach. Love the partnerships that we have here with the IU too, as well.

Erin Barry:

Awesome. Thank you both. We're curious what inspired you both to write this book and if you could talk a little bit about what the impact you're hoping it has on the k-8 math world so it was the end of covid, jenna, that I kind of reached out to you.

Ron Martiello:

Uh, you know, I had been a math coach for about three years at that time and began my journey in universal design, and I'm like, wait a minute, there are a lot of connections here that are natural and that, you know, may not be seen by. Like you know, it's not evident. Sometimes we're on the treadmill of running through our standards and our lessons, and so it was. I felt, though, that it was important. Like every time we have a new initiative, it seems like things are separate, but you know what? This was an opportunity to kind of bring two big items together One, the math common core, and also universal design for learning. I said, you know, I know somebody who knows a little bit about this stuff, and I've worked with her, and she's written two other books, so I gave Jenna a call and I said let's do it.

Jenna Rufo:

And I said let's do it. And I think one of the really great things about this book, particularly that we co-authored, is we really are talking about all students. So when we're talking about the math classroom, we're not talking about math and then special ed is over here, or it's only for these kids until everybody else gets caught up, or it's only for these kids until everybody else gets caught up. The approach really is universal design. So I always find it a little ironic when I hear places saying oh yeah, we're doing universal design, but we have these separate programs or classes. Universal design is everybody. So that's really the approach that we took with this book.

Brandon Langer:

So I think that's one of our follow-up questions here what role universal design plays in math instruction. I'm curious if we have an example what's an example of that in action?

Jenna Rufo:

So when we think of universal design for learning and I'll just sort of give an overview here in case anyone listening isn't familiar with the term so really what universal design for learning is is it's a framework, it's not a list of tips and tricks, it's not a curriculum.

Jenna Rufo:

It's a framework for inclusive instruction where we're looking at intentionally planning from the start to reduce some predictable barriers and then offering students multiple ways that they can access the content, that they can take things in that they can express their knowledge, they can show us what they know and other ways that they can engage with the content.

Jenna Rufo:

So overview of UDL is really looking at it, instead of kind of thinking of teaching to the middle or this mythical average student, we think about students in our class who have the most needs and then we think about the students who need the most challenge and then really when we think about creating access points on both ends of the spectrum, if we're able to do that then everybody else in between is much more likely to find their entry point. So for math in particular, you know there's lots of ways that we can do that in terms of access points, providing options for students providing choices. I think, ron, you wanted to maybe talk about some of the visual supports that we discussed in our books. I'll let you jump in on that part.

Ron Martiello:

Yeah, I mean we, one of the thing I mean, right at the jump, when students are entering a problem, teacher presents a problem on the board or in a small group or wherever, and making sense of the problem is so vital. It's the first step into like, okay, what am I supposed to do and how am I supposed to engage with the mathematics. And so we, you know, sometimes we want to go right into finding the solution. But you know, we really need to make sense of the problem, like what's the situation and what's the problem about and what are the quantities and what's the relationship between the quantities. And we ask a number of different questions to help kids make sense of it.

Ron Martiello:

But you know, again, using universal design for learning, it would be really great if those questions were posted around the room, maybe on a poster, anchor chart or maybe even on a bookmark that they have right there next to their workbook and that they can also the teacher saying it they can utilize that resource check the questions, make sure they're making sense of the problem and then, when they're entering the problem and having their solution, attempt making sure that we have some more questions for them, because we don't want to just have them there on an island trying to find the question.

Ron Martiello:

Sometimes they get stuck. Sometimes they need questions and coaching from the teacher and those questions around the room so that they can. If they do get stuck, they can find another way around maybe a misconception or a mistake that they made and so they can move forward with a new strategy. But that doesn't happen by itself. We think this thing with perseverance is something that's innate, but it's something we really need to coach and we need to coach a lot of different ways, both verbally and visually, with things around the room.

Jenna Rufo:

I was recently working with a district elementary school was implementing a new math curriculum and in this curriculum, at the start of each unit they have a page that was called notice and wonder. So it would be a picture of something and then it would say what do you notice, what do you wonder, as it's related to mathematical concepts. So the one example I'm thinking of there was a picture of a batting cage and the prompt was pretty much using what you know about area and perimeter what do you notice, what do you wonder? A lot of predictable barriers in that task. So when we're thinking in a way that we're using universal design, we're actively anticipating those predictable barriers. First predictable barrier is students might not even know what that picture is.

Jenna Rufo:

So this is a batting cage. If you don't have any experience with a batting cage, you know you're going to need to build that background knowledge, knowledge of just the terms area and perimeter. The open-endedness of it can be challenging. So instead of just sort of leaving it as it is and I always say when I work with teachers your curriculum resource is just that. It is a resource.

Jenna Rufo:

It doesn't mean that we can't then add on and find more creative and effective ways to reach our students. So instead of just what do you notice, what do you wonder? We might say okay, maybe you want to write something down about this, maybe you want to build the batting cage over here at the station where I have Unifix cubes, or maybe you want to talk to a partner about it. So really just providing some of those quick, low bar ways for students to have some choice and autonomy in their learning, but also so we're meeting them where they're at and in the way that they can best communicate their knowledge jenna and I just modeled how to enter these conversations as teachers, like I had the.

Ron Martiello:

You know, I talked about SMP number one and making sense and persevering. And then I go to my colleague and all of a sudden like hey, have you thought about the barriers and all the ways around them and how we can help with? Here's a way to find a solution with that Like this is how we process the book and this is how, when we talk to people like yourselves, we're trying to model that conversation as well.

Brandon Langer:

That makes a lot of sense. I'm curious, aaron, or Kirpa Aaron, you've done a lot with UDL. You know and worked with a lot of teachers that are new to this. How do you engage them in that conversation, particularly when you start to learn how deep and heady that the materials and resources around UDL can be? I'm curious how you get them started with their initial step.

Erin Barry:

Yeah, it's a great question, Brandon, and when we think about universal design for learning, a lot of what we think about is a mindset right? So it's a lot of mindset work which we spend a significant amount of time with when we are working with teachers, but what we sort of have landed on as a concrete way for teachers to really feel like it's an attainable thing to think about, because universal design for learning can feel overwhelming. There's a lot to it. The framework is big. There's so many different clickable parts if you're on the online version is goals, barriers, options. We call it our UDL mantra. What's the simplest way to think about the way in which you design math education or your math lessons from a goals, barriers, options, lens. What's your goal of the lesson or the task? Making sure that we're super tight. We want to know what kids are going to be able to know and do by the end of that and be really clear about it.

Erin Barry:

What barriers can you anticipate that are going to arise, just like Jenna's talking about, and then how can we provide options to create that access for all learners in this space you go into your room. So we try to really keep it very tangible, very concrete and feel very attainable, because it can feel very overwhelming for educators as we approach this idea of like redesigning lessons that are universally accessible for all kids.

Jenna Rufo:

I think one of the things that we also have to communicate to teachers when we're doing this work is yeah, you might initially think we're redesigning this lesson, but if we think about the way that we're currently, in many places, implementing instruction, it's sort of this overarching lesson that we have. And then we think about okay, I have these kids with IEPs and their IEPs say that they need this accommodation and that accommodation and this modification and that modification, and everybody can sit in the front row and I only have one front row, and there's all of these things and requirements that teachers already are having to think about when they're designing their lessons. But instead of thinking it after the fact now, we're thinking it before. So we're thinking about what are all of those needs of students?

Jenna Rufo:

And when we look at things like accommodations, accommodations do not substantially change the content, the performance criteria or what students are showing us that they know. That's more of a modification. So we're thinking of something like an accommodation where we're providing manipulatives. We're doing other things where we're just embracing the task differently. If we can do that for a student with a disability, why wouldn't we do that for all kids? So it's really looking at what are those things that are good, that things that are essential for some students are really good for everybody.

Erin Barry:

Yes, 100%, and I love that you added that part about like the proactive approach. It's a very it's much, it's a much different way of thinking about it, as opposed to this reactive. You know, kids didn't, weren't able to access, kids didn't do well in this thing. How do I go back now and retrofit to make sure I can meet the needs of kids, as opposed to how can I proactively consider that idea of barriers and options before we dive into instruction?

Kirpa Chohan:

Talking about barriers and options, the lens that proactively you have to see what's going to come up. I feel like your book is structured in a way that we have this mindset barriers through myths and you talk about all these myths and how they are barriers for the mindset that teachers, educators need to help the students. So what do you think is the the most harmful of them? If there is one, if you had to pick between that and what, how does the book address them?

Ron Martiello:

I'll tell you, I don't know if there's one that's more harmful now, I think they all contribute in certain ways, but I'll tell you, my favorite one to address is rigor. Rigor just the word sounds exclusive. It sounds like there are kids who are going to be able to jump over the bar and there are some kids that aren't. And we think about an exercise program where it's like yeah.

Ron Martiello:

I got to try really hard. I want to run a marathon, I'm going to run, run, run, run, but we forget about the diet and we forget about all the strength training that goes along with it. And then all of a sudden, we run this marathon and we can't run one anymore because our knees are shot. I use that metaphor because rigor is not just about one thing. It's a balanced approach. It's not just about, it's not about making math problems harder. It's a balanced approach. It's it's conceptual understanding balanced with procedural skills, which is what we grew up on. And then the real world, application. And that's where a lot of access for students can happen.

Ron Martiello:

People are afraid of rigor because of the stigma around the word.

Ron Martiello:

But if you understand it as a balanced approach and you understand like, hey, we're giving kids some conceptual knowledge here, we're trying to show them you know, what does this look like?

Ron Martiello:

How do the numbers work with the real world? And then all of a sudden, you're getting to that application piece and then hey, here's the procedures that can help you to do the work and eventually do it more proficiently. But it's a process and we might slide back and forth. Some of those things are provided together, like the conceptual understanding and the procedural skills, and then all of a sudden we're going to do like, okay, we're going to have the application and we're like, hey, here's the concept, we're returning back to the concept, and it's a flow back and forth and it's not step one, step two, step three either. It's all balanced together and kids can move inside and out of rigor as it relates to conceptual understanding, procedural skills and problem solving, but ultimately it helps kids to move forward and move across the progressions vertically as they move through the grade levels. That's the depth of which we want mathematics to be taught, and it's actually an opportunity for more inclusive practices rather than a gatekeeper.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, I've always thought of rigor. There was a huge word six to eight years ago Like I feel, like I was seeing rigor and relevance, rigor and relevance everywhere. And it was interesting hearing how some of my colleagues at the time, at the high school I was teaching at, viewed that word to your point, ron, because a lot of them viewed it as a quantity of content or a quantity of information and I viewed it as a quantity of thought. And quantity of thought is a very different measure for different, like what is rigorous for you know, in one skill might look different for different people and you know, to back up what you're saying, I mean I remember my initial year coaching, like just give me the bank of problems that are going to be on the test, show me, give me the problems, and so we'll just practice the problems.

Ron Martiello:

But really there's some, very, very there's a lot of intentionality and strategic movement within regular and again thinking proactively, like how are students going to interact with this content, where are the barriers and how do we find solutions so that they can keep moving along with the progression?

Brandon Langer:

So a lot of kids have anxiety around math and maybe this is one of the reasons why, because of how we pitch it, how we sell it. I'm curious how does the instructional approach help teachers, you know, address feelings that give them a more positive view and approach toward math?

Jenna Rufo:

Well, I think Ron and I, we both started out the book with our math stories and somewhat, you know, educationally traumatic experiences that each of us had with math. So I always joke that teachers, especially elementary teachers, who didn't necessarily go into education to teach math, they might have had prior negative experiences with math or not like the topic or don't feel comfortable with it. So everyone brings their math baggage, if you will, with them. So I think one of the things that we talk a lot about is providing the space, you know, not just for teachers to think and reflect on that, but in your classroom to really consider what experiences students are coming with to you. So if we have students who you know already in third or fourth grades have decided that they're not math people, then we have to talk about that idea of having a positive math mindset. That it's not all about answer getting that this is a classroom where it's an exploration. We're really diving deeper into things. It's more about the process than the endpoint.

Erin Barry:

What I hear or am asked most by math educators right when we're out talking, whether it's UDL or we're doing some sort of math training, is how do I meet the needs of all kids in my math class when I have many kids that are grades below academically but I'm being told that I have to teach this particular curriculum? How would you guys sort of respond to something like that, as we're thinking about it through this idea of these myths and, you know, learning gaps, if you will?

Ron Martiello:

You know, math is a series. It's a series of topics, I mean, and that's the advantage of teaching math, it's like there's a coherence to what we do and mathematical topics are related to one another. It's the standards kind of chop them up into grade levels. And sometimes by chopping them up into grade levels, we see like's the barrier. For for some of us as educators, it's like well, that's the third grade thing and that's the fourth grade thing, but really there's a progression of skills and so do we understand, like how they're all connected and also like the depth of which we need to do, like there's the focus standards, like is this an additional or supportive standard? Is this a major area? Major area? I need to get deeper on A supportive standards. They help. The major standards, like understanding how those things work together and I know I'm talking like at the 300 foot view here. But when it gets down to the grade level, when teachers have an understanding of where kids are coming from and where they're going in that progression, we can make a better design.

Jenna Rufo:

I think you know there's instructional pieces that have to happen, and then there's more structural and administrative. So I think, instructionally, as Ron was mentioning this idea of focus and coherence. So, focus, you know really what are the most critical skills that students need to learn, no matter what. And this concept is hard for people sometimes because people think, well, this is the curriculum, everything is important, and that's not really true. So, yes, those are all important to an extent. But my colleague, kate Small, she describes it really well. She says it's like meal planning when you're planning a meal, there are some calories that are more important than others. So what are the most important skills? As Ron stated, that are those major standards. We want to make sure that we're focusing on them very deeply. And then the coherence piece. So how do they relate from grade to grade?

Jenna Rufo:

Obviously, there's lots of different practices we can do with station teaching. If you have a co-teacher, there's ways that we can run small groups and break things up. That said, it is beyond just the instructional piece. So if we want to have a diverse range of learners be successful in general, education leadership administrators need to make sure that teachers are set up for success. I think there's a lot of ways that we can do that Structurally.

Jenna Rufo:

Many schools now have what's called a what I need or when period. That's part of the MTSS multi-tiered systems of support block. That's a targeted time for intervention. So that's a time where we can look at targeting very specific skills. That said, when we see lots and lots of kids who are in tier two and tier three intervention, that doesn't mean we need more interventions. It means that we have to strengthen our tier one instructional practices and think about how do we bring those supports and services to them.

Jenna Rufo:

So I think that a lot of our past practices in terms of ability grouping, separating students, saying you know you're going to go to learning support math or you're going to go to like life skills because you need these prerequisite skills, you know you can't possibly be exposed to second grade math because you don't know whatever it is that came before.

Jenna Rufo:

I think we have to really abandon that idea. First, you know, the wonderful thing about school is when kids don't know something we teach them. So we have to think about how do we provide those supports to students. And I think one of the messages that Ron and I want to be very clear on is our message is not that let's include everyone and let's accommodate and don't worry about procedural fluency or those more topics that people really think about as central to math knowing your facts. Those are still important, but we can't use those as gatekeepers to prevent access, because if we're only addressing skill deficits, there is no way that a student who is pulled out of general education will ever be able to catch up and then get back in and reintegrate.

Ron Martiello:

And that's that student-centric thought, like it's not just about that kid, that student in one year. Lots of times we try to put things in place for one year and it's really like that student's here in our system for like 12 years and so making sure that like when we make these decisions, knowing our coherence and where things are going, you know just saying, oh, they don't need this or don't need that, and we'll just they do. We have to make that plan, we have to design it better.

Jenna Rufo:

And Ron, those decisions that we make about kids at a very young age. That affects their educational trajectory for the rest of their career. So we pull a kid out in first grade for you know, pull out instruction and sure, maybe they're learning some of those identified skill gaps, they're missing everything else and they get further and further behind. And I like to refer to those kids as curriculum disabled. So yeah, they might have a disability, but we've disabled them more by not providing access to the curriculum.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, and it's fascinating being a coach because it's funny there's things that you're talking about are actually super applicable to what we do in sports, because You're basically what you're saying is we're never going to let a kid play basketball until they get through the cones of dribbling and then they learn how to shoot a free throw, and then they learn how to do a layup and they have to pass all of those things before they ever get in the game. And that's not how it works. The way to get better at playing any game is to play the game. We then we spend targeted time in practice and other activities really looking at specific skills, building team awareness. You know like all those things work hand in hand.

Brandon Langer:

One is not necessarily, you know, one specific skill is not necessarily more important than the other to prevent someone from engaging in the game. And in this case the game is math. So if we've set it up as such that you have to do X, y and Z before you ever get in the game, guess what? They're not ever going to get in the game and then they're going to be disenfranchised from ever wanting to. So it really makes a lot of sense what you're saying, and I think we have other models out with youth, with learning to pull from and engage with. I think, in summary, my question to the two of you is what's one that stands out to you Like, like, what is that approach if you're working with an administrator or a teacher or a school leader, a coach, that can help someone you know really promote and sustain this practice, because it might look very different than how we've done it before.

Ron Martiello:

I can tell you that the work that we've been doing here at North Penn and this is more along the lines of kind of like your students in MCSS, tier two type of things like we're trying to stop what Jenna was describing about having kids getting pulled out so early and going to an assistant or resource room or something Like let's be proactive, let's figure out is there something essential that they need before they get to the new learning. So we always do like this intervention afterward and then the kids are three or four steps behind. It's like let's understand, like what's kind of going on, and there doesn't have to be a major event. We don't have to like, as Jenna talked about, we don't have to have students learning all these prerequisite skills, like what's one thing that's going to unlock this skill, this one, you know this grade level standard, and let's like, do a little bit of essential, you know teaching prior to it, so that we know these kids are on board.

Ron Martiello:

So if we are proactive about that and it's just like you're talking about with a sport, if I have a kiddo who's having trouble with a skill before they get to the game, I'm going to do a little bit of work there. I'm not going to keep them out of the game, but I'm going to do the work so they're good in the game. So we're proactive about that, and so it's called accelerated learning. It's not about just to give the kids. It's like how do we make sure that we're intervening prior to core instruction so the kids are ready to access and participate in the core instruction on grade level? So, jenna, do you have any other ideas?

Jenna Rufo:

Yeah, I mean, brandon. You also mentioned administratively what are some of the things that can be done. I will also offer what are some of the things that should not be done. And you know it's no secret to anyone that knows me or follows my work that I am a huge proponent of inclusive education and my philosophy is very much if you build it, they will come. If you build a separate program or intervention or classroom, it will be full tomorrow.

Jenna Rufo:

So if we continue to perpetuate these separate systems, these separate classrooms, we're never going to see that equity in mathematics education that we want to see. And it's not just students with disabilities who suffer from that. You know we can look at research that shows that there are students of color who are represented in higher level math classes at much lower rates. So I think that the hard thing to do is really looking at what are those structures that are not effective, that have not been effective over time, and how do we dismantle those to create something new? Because until that happens, we have problems with yeah, this all sounds good but we don't have staff because the special ed teachers are over here in self-contained and then we place students with disabilities in general ed without supports and, shocking, they struggle and then we say it doesn't work. So there really is an element of proactive planning from a leadership standpoint dismantling structures that are not conducive to equity in math or to inclusive education.

Brandon Langer:

Well, thank you both for sharing so you know so much today. It sounds like Kirpa's already in your book. I haven't yet had a chance to look into it. I look forward to learning more in that. Erin, I'm curious from your perspective, what's coming up? I know there's events coming up in 2025. So I'd love to hear more about what we have going on at the IU and how it ties into today's conversation.

Erin Barry:

Yeah, absolutely so. In February we're going to kick off a text talk around this very text, give teachers a space to be able to come together, have these conversations and read through these different myths and hopefully arm them with some tools and strategies to help in this very proactive design that we've been talking about today. So that'll be beginning in February. If you are joining the text talk and you sign up by December 20th, we're going to give you a free copy of the text. To join us April 3rd we are going to bring Ron and Jenna in to the IU. We're going to do a meet the author session in the afternoon to have them dive a little bit deeper with us around this conversation and explore further, you know, with all participants. So we're excited about both of those.

Brandon Langer:

That sounds great. I really can't thank the two of you enough, can't thank Kip and Erin enough for bringing today's conversation to light. My biggest takeaway today being new and fresh to this conversation how all these things are interrelated. It's not just UDL over here, and then we're going to talk about how we're going to do math differently. And then we're going to talk about how we're going to get everybody reading, and then we're going to talk about how, you know, we need to address mental health. All of these things are interrelated in education and it feels like this is an example of, you know, how UDL can be pervasive across all of those things. Using math as a lens is going to be the kind of way for myself. I'm taking away the learning, but thank you both for moving this forward. Thank you for sharing these ideas this morning. And, aaron, we look forward to learning more with the group here next year already. Can't believe it's the end of the year already.

Jenna Rufo:

Thank you. Thank you for having us.

Brandon Langer:

Thank you. Well, for those that haven't heard our podcast before, this is the MCIU Learns podcast. We do these. We're on a weekly schedule at this point thanks to Kirpa Kirpa tons of math talk this year, which has been a blast. So be sure to check out our previous episodes and take a look at our MCIU Learning Network, learnmciuorg. We are across all the social medias at this point. Please be sure to like and subscribe at MCIU Learns. Be sure to check out Ron and Jenna, who I know are active on social media. Ron, jenna, I don't know if you have handles you want to share real quick as we're wrapping up here.

Jenna Rufo:

Sure, so on Instagram and X, which I don't know how much longer I'll be on that one, but it's at Jenna M Rufo on Facebook, I, if you follow Empowered School Solutions, you can follow our work that way there.

Ron Martiello:

Most of the professional stuff I post is going to be on LinkedIn, so feel free to search me on LinkedIn and you'll find a lot of my thoughts there.

Brandon Langer:

Yep, ron is a regular visitor of my feed, so I appreciate everything he shares over on LinkedIn. Thank you, jenna, for joining us, and everybody have a great rest of the week and end of the year. Thank you. Thank you, jenna, for joining us and everybody have a great rest of the week and end of the year.

Ron Martiello:

Thank you, thank you.