The MCIULearns Podcast

Revolutionizing Math Education: Embracing Integrated Mathematics in Montgomery County

• Montgomery County Intermediate Unit • Season 6 • Episode 4

Share episode

In this episode, we explore the integrated mathematics approach in school curricula. Join us alongside our distinguished guests, Dr. Jason Lilly from Lower Merion School District and Mr. Ed Merk from Colonial School District, as they share their pioneering efforts in blending algebra, geometry, and statistics into a seamless learning journey. Discover how this innovative model not only enriches students' mathematical understanding but also bridges the gap between different math topics, enabling a more cohesive learning experience.

Jason Lily:

So when you think about everything that happens K through 8, it's all integrated right. All the topics algebra, number sense, geometry, statistics, data, all those things kind of blend together. Then all of a sudden, in Algebra 1, that just stops. So that didn't make sense for us. So while we were revising some of our middle school sequencing, it made sense to also change what that sequence would look like.

Edward Merk:

Beyond that, that algebraic continuum and how you know you're really able to build and scaffold skills. Students are coming out of middle school with to what they need for calculus and you're able to. There's a lot of room in there to help students build those skills.

Brandon Langer:

Hello Montgomery County and welcome to the MCIU Learns podcast. My name is Brandon Langer, I am the Director of Innovation and Strategic Partnerships at the Montgomery County Intermediate Unit, which is in Norristown, pennsylvania, and I am very excited for today's conversation around integrated mathematics. But before we get to that conversation, I'm going to let our project consultant introduce herself, as well as our two special guests for the day.

Kirpa Chohan:

Welcome to today's episode. I'm Kirpa Chauhan, project consultant at MCIU, specializing in mathematics, and today we're going to be exploring a topic that's gaining some attention in education integrated math. So, unlike the traditional math curriculum, where subjects like Algebra 1, geometry and Algebra 2 are taught in separate courses, an integrated math curriculum weaves together various mathematical concepts, such as Algebra II are taught in separate courses. An integrated math curriculum weaves together various mathematical concepts such as algebra, geometry, probability and statistics across each grade level. To help us dive into this topic, I'm excited to have two math leaders who have been at the forefront of implementing this model in their districts. Our guests today are Dr Jason Lilly, lead Supervisor for Curric for curriculum and instruction at Lower Merion School District, and Mr Ed Mark, curriculum supervisor at Colonial School District. Both oversee math education in their district and they've led the charge in transitioning to integrated math. Thank you both for being here.

Edward Merk:

Thank you for having us. Thank you for having us.

Kirpa Chohan:

So I'm going to start with you. What is integrated math.

Edward Merk:

So for Colonial School District, it's a series of courses that students take from freshman year till first semester of junior year, and what it is is we have taken the concepts that are traditionally, like you said, within Algebra 1, geometry and Algebra 2, like you said, within algebra one, geometry and algebra two, and integrated them in such a way to mostly make connections between the topics and the concepts. The goal was for students to make more connections and then be able to expand on those topics and concepts outside of the traditional coursework.

Kirpa Chohan:

Yeah, so it's like continuation from eighth grade, where it's all together and then they have like separate courses instead of that having that integration continue along right.

Edward Merk:

It does create more of a flow from when they enter ninth grade until they start looking at more specific courses like statistics and calculus.

Jason Lily:

And I'll jump in and add to that a little bit. What you'll see traditionally in an integrated math sequence is math 1, math 2, and math 3 instead of the algebra 1, geometry algebra 2 sequence. One of the big reasons to consider something like that is in the traditional algebra 1, geometry algebra 2 sequence is that geometry year it's kind of a gap year in between two algebra courses and that's really you know. I think when you see school districts switching to integrated math, that's part of the why.

Edward Merk:

It helps the algebraic continuum I call it make that more consistent throughout high school rather than, as Jason said, having that gap here with geometry.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, and when you look at the reasons for that, what does that look like? I mean, in terms of when does that start? Math sequences start sometimes sixth, seventh grade in schools. Is that where your school districts are kind of picking up with this?

Jason Lily:

approach. For us at Lower Marion, foundational math courses are very important, so for us a student has to have completed everything up through and including the Math 8 curriculum.

Jason Lily:

Okay, so, state standards through eight. Once a student has made their way through all of those topics and those courses, then they're eligible to start the integrated math sequence, similar to a district where someone would start algebra one. So integrated math starts where algebra one would have started. So you do have some middle school students that take the integrated sequence. They started there. Some students will be in integrated one, some students will be in integrated two with the middle school, similar to a district that has students at the middle school in geometry courses. But that's where it starts. You have to complete K through eight math concepts and skills because you need that foundation before you can jump into the integrated pathway. Yeah, is Colonial similar, similar approach.

Edward Merk:

One thing I'll add to what Jason said is we back map everything from our highest levels into the integrated courses and then down further into middle school math. Something that's a little bit different for Colonial is all students are on the same take the same math class all the way up to sixth grade and then they still continue with that into trimester one of seventh grade. While students might be leveled for a more advanced math class in seventh grade, all students in seventh grade take the have. They explore the same content, that first trimester just kind of make sure they're in the right spot. And then that first trimester, that second semester of seventh grade, is where students will start taking more advanced or stay on grade level. There might be an opportunity later where we'll talk about how students who maybe stayed within seventh grade math and didn't go to advanced math still have the opportunity to move up, so to say, in later grades.

Kirpa Chohan:

That's good that they have that opportunity later on and it's not shut down for them. So I'm going to start with you, Ed. You were the first one in the county to start integrated meth.

Edward Merk:

I believe so Colonial started before I got there.

Kirpa Chohan:

Okay.

Edward Merk:

But yes, that's my understanding.

Kirpa Chohan:

So how was the implementation process for both of you, because you were the only ones, I believe, in the county doing it.

Edward Merk:

So for Colonial they had two other things happening at the same time. One was they were switching to a five block schedule. So you know, every school year students are essentially taking 10 courses with that kind of schedule. And they were also on an initiative led by their current superintendent back in the early 2010s trying to increase the rigor within their classes and grading for learning, and so all that kind of came together and the math department was like well, what is it we can do to help support this initiative? And that was one of the ways that Integrated Math supported what our higher goal was in the district of increasing the rigor within classes.

Jason Lily:

For us. I'll say there were a lot of reasons and I think a lot of districts compete with some of these challenges as well, especially at the middle school level. We had kids, because of acceleration, who are being tested what seems like continuously. You know we have students who are taking PSSAs, but if they're accelerated in math they're also taking a Keystone exam there. So we had a bunch of students who were being double tested, especially in the eighth grade at Lower Marion.

Jason Lily:

The other thing that we really looked at as we considered this was the sequence that existed at the time and how it came to be. There were systems in place at our middle school where I think sort of like what Ed was talking about we had kids who would all kind of take the same courses, for the most part through middle school, including a seventh grade pre-algebra course, and then we kind of made some determinations of what would they take in eighth grade. We didn't have a traditional seventh grade math course. We didn't have a traditional eighth grade math course. It was largely missing. So there were some standards and things that were really not hit on as well as they could have been, and so there were some curricular gaps for us in the way the system was designed then and so there were some work with the middle school programming.

Jason Lily:

Like I said before, all kids working their way through k-8 standards and being successful there before we enter into that next level, which for us was algebra one at the time. But it made more sense, and you heard a little bit earlier where you know that gap year in geometry just didn't make a lot of sense. So when you think about everything that happens k through 8, it's all integrated right. All the topics algebra, number sense, geometry, statistics, data all those things kind of blend together. Then all of a sudden in Algebra 1, that just stops. So that didn't make sense for us. So while we were revising some of our middle school sequencing, it made sense to also change what that sequence would look like.

Brandon Langer:

Beyond that, yeah, that makes sense in terms of implementation in both cases, because you have students that started on one track. You're not just going to all of a sudden flip everybody to integrate it. I'm assuming, right, Right?

Edward Merk:

And the other challenge there with what you're talking about, with geometry, you can't drop geometry. Some districts are like, oh, we'll make it a half a semester, yeah, but there's still a lot of concepts in geometry that are important for pre-calculus and calculus, and so you have to make sure they're still there while accomplishing the goal of, you know, keeping that continuum running.

Jason Lily:

To go back to your kind of question there, brandon, about what did that look like. You know, ed was lucky enough that when he came on board it was kind of there For us. It was, you know, from the very beginning. And we did. We had students who were in both pathways, both the traditional Algebra 1, geometry Algebra 2 sequence, and then we brought in integrated and it took us several years. So, as we brought in integrated 1, then 2, then 3, we did it over three years of time. So there was a cohort of students who were starting that new integrated math pathway but anyone who had already been on the traditional algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2 sequence, they stayed on that sequence and finished it out because they had already been in process. It was just really challenging to try to do it any other way because a student who had taken a full year of algebra 1 and was ready to go to geometry, it was really hard because they've seen none of the geometry that was in our integrated one course. So it didn't. There was no way to make that work and try to play catch up. So it just made sense to have students finish the path they were on and the new students coming into that integrated pathway start and we phased it in for three years. So it took three years to get that all the way through.

Jason Lily:

Was there any challenge there or did it just kind of happen? Naturally, I think communication is always a challenge, no matter what the change is, but for us it was a big change. It was a huge change changing how we had done things for a very long time. We held multiple parent meetings where we talked about both content of the integrated and what that looked like, and part of that was really sharing listen the content from Algebra 1, geometry and Algebra 2, none of it's going away. We're just rearranging where it lives.

Jason Lily:

And I think the easiest way to help someone maybe understand integrated, kind of going back to how we started, is when I had to explain it to parents in those meetings. So it would make sense you basically take Geometry and you split it up over three years and that's what happens. So that course while it doesn't exist as a course anymore, students see a third of that in the first course, another third in the second course and then they finish it out in that third course. And that made a lot of sense and it resonated with people like oh, I get it now. It makes sense to me, but the geometry or the algebra happens every year. Yeah, that's exactly what it is.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, but it's just got to kind of play out and I think that's one of my sorry. I just had a lot of questions In terms of sometimes, when we're making shifts like this, people don't necessarily understand why we can say, well, we don't want to break up the subjects. Well, maybe the parent didn't necessarily understand. But what are the really positive outcomes of taking this approach from either of your perspectives, in terms of it's not just about the fact it makes sense to do math, you know not in these siloed blocks. Are there any other positive outcomes maybe we've seen from this approach?

Edward Merk:

Just the application and connections you can make between the content of those three traditional courses. I think this will be the third time I've mentioned that algebraic continuum and how you know you're really able to build and scaffold skills. You know skills that students are coming out of middle school with to what they need for calculus. There's a lot of room in there to help students build those skills and get them to that point. Generally, what we see is that some of the things that students will forget in Algebra 1, they'll revisit it throughout integrated math. It gives the students the ability to revisit things that they struggled with and continue to build upon where they were weak and really expand on where they were successful.

Kirpa Chohan:

It seems like it also helps with the retention in there because, you're revisiting it over and over and over, rather than using it once and then letting it go.

Edward Merk:

Correct and then thinking about teachers and knowing exactly what the previous courses before them taught like that really helps with the recall that teachers can help students make when you get into the higher levels.

Jason Lily:

Yeah, to echo what Ed's sharing there. I mean, think about it from that teacher perspective. You know, if you're a geometry teacher at some point during that year, you're still doing a little bit of algebra, right it's? Part of the course. So you're having to say things like well, remember, last year I know you learned this, and then that algebra two teacher is doing the same thing. Well remember, back in algebra one, you learned this. Maybe you haven't done it for a year, but you learned it two years ago.

Jason Lily:

So now let's use that and do some math and algebra too. So that's the algebraic continuum that I think Ed's talking about is, you don't ever have that gap and you don't have people saying well, remember two years ago when you did this, because we keep using those algebra skills all throughout.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah well, kids sometimes don't remember what we did yesterday, so it becomes even harder when we look back over that time. I personally found it great as a music teacher being able to have the same kids every year because we could build upon those skills. They had the context with me, the teacher. To your point, jason, often it's not the same teacher that's teaching Algebra 2 versus Algebra 1. It was two years ago, totally different room context. That's a lot to pull back and reach across for any kid. Kierpa, did you ever teach in this model?

Kirpa Chohan:

I have not, but everywhere else in the world most people do use integrated math and both my older siblings use this model. Actually, funny story when one of my brother-in-law's cousins came over, and they came over from India and they were just telling me oh, what is this geometry in Algebra 2? Because they didn't know where they were going to be placed. They got placed in Algebra 1, but they had already taken pre-calc. So it was so weird because they did't know where they were going to be placed. They got placed in Algebra 1, but they had already taken pre-calc. So it was so weird because they did not know these names, so not knowing where it is in the spectrum of having isolated subjects. But they know it, it's just not taught as isolated.

Brandon Langer:

So that's a great point in terms of an obstacle you can face when doing this, which is students transferring in from out of another district into your system. They're coming from that more traditional siloed approach. How does that work?

Edward Merk:

So that was one of the challenges I was going to talk about. So it takes a lot to really figure out, well, where was that kid placed? But then over the years we've looked at the traditional content in those courses and we know where those students can be placed after, however, many years of students transferring in and students transfer in all the time and they're just as successful. And it goes towards the nature of the integrated math. Okay, let's say you came out of an Algebra I or traditional geometry course and you're transferring into Colonial or Lower Merion. Well, in an integrated program, you're going to revisit things anyway. So if there were things in our curriculum that they've missed, it's going to get revisited.

Jason Lily:

It works both ways for us. The challenges that Ed's talking about with someone who comes in with, say, an Algebra I and they're ready for their second math course, which would have been geometry. They're pretty much. They're able to jump into an integrated two course with a little bit of gap closure from the geometry pieces they missed right, but they can kind of do that. Someone who comes in with algebra one and geometry, it's a little trickier jumping into that third year course.

Jason Lily:

They have some skills that our students that have been there with us all the time maybe don't have because they took a full year of Geometry. But our kids would have a little bit more of that Algebra foundation than someone moving in. So there's always a little bit of that gap closure you've got to worry about. We typically do some kind of pre-assessment for students that are new to the district and figure out where those gaps are and usually it doesn't take much to kind of close those gaps for those kids that are coming in. The other thing on the positive side is we do at Lower Merion get you know our share of international students coming to the district. A lot of them tend to be families, where professors come in to the local colleges and now that now they're living in our district, we also have an IB program at Harriton High.

Jason Lily:

School that draws international students when they come here. So in that sense it's made it a little easier for us to place students who are new to the district, especially coming from international countries, because, like you said, Kira, but the rest of the world essentially does integrated math, the United. States when we did the research about making the change. It's really the United States is the only place that breaks them up into algebra and geometry, algebra 2, into those silos.

Brandon Langer:

We don't have to go down this rabbit hole. Where did that come?

Edward Merk:

from. If that's the case there's about why it's siloed like that. You'll hear from different researchers about why. The one thing I found is that the reason why Algebra I became the norm, followed by Geometry and Algebra II, was because it was what industry needed. So back when we were developing our education system as a country, industry was saying, hey, we need more skills. And we're talking what? Maybe 19th century, early 1900s? And so that's when they said, okay, these are more skills and we're talking about maybe 19th century, early 1900s.

Edward Merk:

And so that's when they said okay, these are the skills, this is algebra one. We need students to have this baseline when they come out. Then it said well, wait a minute. Now things started to get more advanced. Now they said well, we also need these geometry, we need the geometry skills. Then algebra two came along, and that's why we're stuck in that sequence of algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2. Now those of you out there listening to this, if I'm wrong in my history I think there's parts of that are correct, because that's what I was told and there are some studies out there about that, so hopefully I'm not misquoting anything.

Brandon Langer:

It's fascinating to me that we would I mean, look, we're an anomaly in many respects with the way we do education in America, but the fact that it's so ingrained and that it feels like we're moving toward a model that everybody else is doing anyway.

Kirpa Chohan:

And that's why I feel like there is so much disconnection between the subjects, like I don't think students are getting that all of these concepts are connected because they're taught so much in isolation.

Brandon Langer:

well, I remember taking physics and my physics teacher just being so frustrated that we hadn't taken calculus yet, he's like, and he would teach us both ways yeah but it was a challenge for him because he goes this is just going to make so much more sense when you guys take calculus next year. And it did. It was, I just remember, like sitting there through calculus, my senior going, yeah, this would have helped it would have made it a lot simpler anyway, but a lot less formulaic and more, you know, concept driven.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, and it's kind of funny because we're talking more about like it's almost like being um, oh, gosh, cross, collaborative across subjects, but we're just talking about math unto itself. You know algebra and geometry, and algebra too it is, but I mean I'll speak to my own experience.

Jason Lily:

That connectedness is so important. That's what helps kids make sense of the math, right. But for me my own experience middle school, high school I still remember learning algebra and solving equations and thinking that was very different, like it was a unit right, but then there was this whole other unit where we talked about graphing, because that was this whole other thing, so I really feel like my own experience going through, you know, a public middle school, high school, I missed out on a lot of the connections between even algebra equations and graphing because they were taught completely separate.

Jason Lily:

They were their own units. So integrated math just takes all those things and makes it make sense. You can fit things where they need to be. You know you'll see some Algebra 2 concepts in the first year course because it makes sense to put them there right. It's just very different yeah.

Brandon Langer:

Yeah, so how does that look? Testing.

Kirpa Chohan:

What does that?

Brandon Langer:

approach look like. How does that work in Pennsylvania?

Kirpa Chohan:

Because when I talk to a lot of school districts they're hesitant on moving into.

Jason Lily:

They're like oh, it's a great idea, but that algebra one keystone test right, so they're like when do they take it? This was one of our biggest benefits. Besides, the connected nature of math and having math makes sense to more kids, that double testing that I talked about at the middle school, that really was hitting our, especially our, eighth grade students. Most of that moved out to the high school Because, since you don't finish all of the Algebra 1 concepts at the end of the first year course, our testing happens in the second course.

Jason Lily:

So when Integrated 2 is when we now take the Keystone exam. So for us it really shifted that. And you know, for the first couple years years we were testing at the end of integrated to. Just last year for the first time we kind of piloted taking that keystone in the middle of integrated to, because that's really when we kind of finish the algebra one concept. So we're just starting to play around a little bit with where that lives. But it doesn't live in eighth grade for the most of our students anymore.

Jason Lily:

There are still some. So those kids that were kind of double accelerated that would have been in a geometry class in eighth grade. Yeah, they still have the eighth grade PSSA and the Keystone exam, but it really shifted our testing more to the high school for the Keystone than having two tests, both living down at the middle school yeah.

Edward Merk:

I'll echo what Jason said. I've been in school districts that have traditional Algebra I in 7th and 8th grade and those students are taking those state tests along with the other content areas and it was interesting to see how Algebra I the students did great with but then their grade-level PSSAs they did not do so hot on. So at Colonial we're able to have all Keystone Algebra 1 students, or all students take the Keystone Algebra 1 winter of 10th grade. Okay, so right there in December.

Brandon Langer:

January timeline. That's pretty much what you were saying for most kids.

Edward Merk:

So it's you know again. It just gives more opportunity to better prepared students for that kind of high-stakes test.

Brandon Langer:

What I like about what you said is that we also sometimes get in the testing mindset that it has to happen on this schedule has to happen in this way on this time frame.

Brandon Langer:

It seems like you've both landed on a unique approach to that Like no, the timing of this makes sense here, let's do it there. That speaks to A leadership being attentive to the, the needs, but also just you evolving how you work. Kip, you had a question there about evolving just the curriculum in general and where they're headed. I'm curious what you were, where your head was, in that question.

Kirpa Chohan:

Oh, my thing was what are they excited? Because, now that they have integrated pathways and they're going to it, what is the new math thing that you're excited about?

Jason Lily:

I'll say for us, we're really trying to incorporate a little more of the technology side of things. Especially now with online testing, that's going to be a requirement. It's something we haven't really done a whole lot with, so we're starting to explore a little bit of what would some even some formative assessments look like done on the computer. At the middle school we just adopted a new program, amplify Desmos, as our math program, and so that is a tech forward program. And Desmos just seems to continue to grow because it's the online tool. It's the online graphing.

Jason Lily:

It's their online calculator. So there's all those pieces that align well with the state testing and what that looks like. But that's kind of for us. You know that we've kind of shifted content and we've changed sort of what our practices are like and what our student experience is like in making sense of the math. Now we're looking to infuse some of the tech pieces and you know, everyone knows there's a lot about AI going on right now and there's starting to be things coming out about. Well, how will that impact math? Math's been impacted for a long time.

Jason Lily:

Calculators computers and snap math, all those things. But AI will be the next thing to kind of just keep your eyes on.

Edward Merk:

Yeah, echo what Jason said about the technology aspects in math education. Now I echo what Jason said about the technology aspects in math education now. It's just making those connections visually to what you see abstractly and you look at programs for elementary schools that are most successful. It's the concrete, representational, abstract approach. Well, with technology, we're able to do that more with the higher level maths Before the technology advanced it's difficult to get those kinds of manipulatives for your traditional Algebra 1, geometry, algebra 2 topics.

Edward Merk:

Now it's right there on your screens and can help make those connections and, like Jason said, bring more understanding into the classroom.

Kirpa Chohan:

Yeah, because math is a very visual subject. It's just we haven't had the means to bring that in and help that concept connection for our students. And now that we have all these means, why not use them? Right? Right, what advice would you be giving districts who want to start piloting that way so it could be anything, parent communication, why they should be doing it, how to implement anything you feel like? What are the big key points that you would recommend for them?

Edward Merk:

So, understanding student aspirations, you know majority of students. You know going on to some type of post-secondary work, so you know calculus statistics, post-secondary work so you know calculus statistics. Or you know, when you're creating your program are you back mapping it and you know creating that scope and sequence in a way that's going to help them be successful in those traditional higher level courses that all students know. This is what I need to get to, so that's so your curriculum and instruction will be a big thing there to make sure you're scaffolding it in a way that helps the students succeed in the end.

Jason Lily:

I would say know what problem you're trying to solve, if you're going, to jump into that. There should be a why. And I don't mean that, because everybody says that but it's real. Mean that because everybody says that, but it's real. If you're going to make a huge curricular change and transformation, you definitely need to be able to explain why you're doing something like that um, you asked earlier about rolling something like that out challenges in lower marion.

Jason Lily:

I mean, we're a high achieving, high performing district. Um, so changing from the traditional approach, that was a big question. Why would we do this? It's not broken. Why are we fixing it? The why is because we thought we could do better by kids by changing to something like that, making those connections in the math, making math make sense. And while test scores aren't everything in the world, we've seen results in switching to integrated math More kids making sense of it, more kids participating in math classes. That was one of the biggest things when we first brought this on board. There were classrooms where we'd walk in and see what was going on and the teacher would pull us aside and say you see that kid that just answered those last two questions. They said that kid never raised their hand once before we switched to integrated math. So even when we were in the pilot phase, it was amazing to see how the kids reacted, because they were making sense of math.

Jason Lily:

So I think that's a big piece is know why you want to do something like this. I think Ed and I both think it makes sense, which is why we're not looking to get rid of it anytime soon. This is something that I think is here to stay. While we're kind of, like you know, steering the ship, I think knowing the why and then communication is absolutely key, like, get in front of that, make sure there's some meetings. Uh, I think with every initiative you have some naysayers, so we certainly had.

Jason Lily:

That you know internally and externally. I think when people get their hands on it and start to see what it's like and how it works and they see the reaction of the kids, it's really worth it in the end as you were speaking just there something.

Brandon Langer:

it's a phrase I've actually always struggled with myself as a teacher, whenever people say if it's not broken, don't fix it, and it's like, well, if you're waiting for something to break before you provide system maintenance.

Brandon Langer:

I mean like that's probably not the best approach. I mean you're waiting for your tire to blow out before you change your tires. You know it's probably not the way to go. And I just love what both of you said. I love that you started with the students and where are the students headed and what are their needs and what can we be doing to support that. And Jason, you followed that right up with exactly the same thing.

Brandon Langer:

And then that added piece of knowing why we're doing something. I think if we, the more we do curriculum, even stepping outside of math for a second, the more we do with curriculum, that really takes that approach first and lets that be the guide, let that be our why it's going to, I think, just continue to improve curricular decisions, which sometimes can be knee-jerk decisions, sometimes be leadership decisions, without that real center, why of why we're making this adjustment. And then it falls flat when either that person leaves or retires or something doesn't go exactly as maybe we thought it had, we just throw it out and that's not a sustainable model for change.

Jason Lily:

Anyone who is a district leader for math or you're a building principal that kind of has that responsibility. One of the definite challenges when we went to this model was people asking the question well, show me someone else around here that's doing this. I mean so there's Colonial right, so there was Ed, but outside of that there wasn't anybody else and that was definitely a challenge.

Jason Lily:

So you know I'll speak for me, but I know Ed would say the same thing. You have two districts that are doing this now and meeting with a lot of success and kids making sense of math, and so if anyone is interested in exploring this or taking this on and there are always welcome to ask questions and reach out to to me and us just to see what that's like or, you know, you're welcome to share here's kind of our situation this is what we're thinking. Does that make sense?

Edward Merk:

like anytime, anytime, for sure you have our support with taking this on because it just makes sense even though there weren't a lot of school dart, there weren't a lot of school school districts out there, that we're taking this on, it's still nice, you know, whoever you did reach out to offered their yeah, hey come offered their help, come check out we don't have exactly that, but come out and see what we do, think of the ideas that you have and give you our input.

Edward Merk:

And that's one of the great things with the intermediate unit here is like you might not have a lot of districts that do it, but if we tell them our ideas they can give us their. It's another layer of input to think of what might go wrong and plan for it accordingly. The last thing I'd like to say here is the access I think an integrated curriculum provides. You know, in an environment where you know you students want to achieve, they want the higher levels. Everybody wants to be in honors, but integrated math allows you to have multiple entry points.

Edward Merk:

So for colonial, you know, one of our first entry points is seventh grade math. And if so, if the students not able to take advanced math and seventh grade math, and if so, if a student's not able to take advanced math in seventh grade math, we have that opportunity again in second semester of ninth grade. And then the very last opportunity would be first semester, 10th grade, and it's like well, wait a minute, it's only 10th grade, there's still two more years, typically by 10th grade. Those students know their pathway, they know what they kind of want to focus their their energy on. Yeah, they could be a student that realized hey, I'm, I want to be all humanities. But going back to what I was saying, how integrated math provides you up? Well, I think it provides more opportunities to reach a higher level if they want it. It's there, that's great.

Jason Lily:

I agree and I would just say again if someone is being challenged because there aren't enough districts around them doing that, just look at the rest of the world, right? That's how the rest of the world does math.

Kirpa Chohan:

And now there are a lot of states going that way statewide, like I know, idaho, ohio, oregon. A lot of the states are going integrated math yeah, I didn't talk about that at all, but when we first looked at programs.

Jason Lily:

We ended up adopting a program from the state of Utah.

Kirpa Chohan:

That's where we were talking because the state of Utah was all integrated.

Jason Lily:

They decided everyone's going to do integrated, and so that's where we started, with states that were, you know, kind of immersed in that. So, yeah, great point.

Brandon Langer:

Well, thank you all for this conversation. I appreciate the two of you coming joining, sharing, also offering, you know, a helping hand for those in the area. Again, it doesn't just be Montgomery County, for in southeast PA, right, you have sometimes in Pennsylvania we need that local example it's a pull from to get more others on board. So thank you both for joining here, but thanks for this awesome conversation. I know we've been talking about doing some more math topics throughout the year, so I'm excited to dive more into that with you.

Kirpa Chohan:

We're going to have a lot of coming about math pathways, especially secondary level.

Brandon Langer:

Awesome. So, yeah, more than that to come. Thank you both for joining. This is your first MCIU Learns podcast. We do these pretty much monthly, if not biweekly if we have enough content, but feel free to check them out on our learning network, learnmciuorg. You can follow us at MCIU Learns across all the main social media platforms, so please like and subscribe there. Thank you everybody for the great conversation today.

Jason Lily:

Thank you so much. Thank you for the invite you.